Transcript
WEBVTT
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Welcome to the Cat and Moose podcast.
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I'm Kat and.
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I'm Moose.
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This is the True Life podcast, where we explore the quirks of being human.
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Hi, welcome to part two.
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Yeah, welcome Kat.
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I have lots of things I want to talk about and I thought it would be fun to, like Jeopardy, give you some categories and you get to pick.
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And then also with yours, you give me categories and I get to pick.
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Okay, I love it, great.
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Okay.
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So here are my categories you get to choose from.
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The first one here is gut feeling, the next one is fat, the next one is co-creators and the following one is spiral dynamics Whoa that immediately like hits all my little ding, ding ding.
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Spiral dynamics.
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What the?
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hell is that?
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Well, you brought spiral dynamics to the table several episodes ago.
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Do you remember this?
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I remember the sacred spiral and I remember sacred geometry, but spiral dynamics.
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Yeah, and I've heard people talk spiral dynamics in kind of different groups that I've been a part of that are like psychology based or whatever, but I've never quite understand it.
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But I saw this and I was like this is my gift to you, kat.
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I'm a huge fan, as you guys know, of Elise Lunan and this is something I just think she's brilliant.
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But this is what she shared and my mind was blown and I want to discuss Okay, and here's what she says here Spiral dynamics, the most useful model I found to explain the moment in time, this moment in time.
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I wrote about this at length and her sub-stack, but I want you to hear what she says here.
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So in last week's newsletter I wrote about this concept of spiral dynamics, which was first created by Claire Graves, who was a contemporary of Abraham Maslow.
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They were friends.
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But whereas Maslow we have his sort of triangle, his hierarchy of needs, I felt that human evolution and development had no end.
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That's of actualization was just sort of the beginning and that it was an animating spiral.
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And then a man named Don Beck took the theory and advanced it and then Ken Wilbur took it up and I wrote about it because it's the best model.
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All models are not perfect but they're useful for this moment that we find ourselves in.
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And it argues, or it sort of places all of human development on this spiral, saying that all parts of the spiral are mostly present in us at all times and we're all capable of the different levels of the spiral.
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And it's a really useful system when we see these moments where it feels like we're in chaos and we're breaking apart, because Wilbur would argue that that's the moment where we start to transcend and include what came before.
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That it's sort of the birth of a new awareness, consciousness, perspective, the ability to get a little bit above this moment in time, and to that end it's a really beautiful model.
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It's in my bio.
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Go to SUPSTAC to read the more comprehensive overview.
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But essentially it starts with beige.
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The first, which is the animalistic, this sort of where we are when we're newborns, where we just need to get our needs met.
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This is about securing food security, water safety.
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Then we moved on to the purple, which is the mystical, animistic, where we understood ourselves to be in conversation with some forest bigger than ourselves.
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And again these continue to be present with us today, in each of us.
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This isn't just defining a group, but some are more present in different parts of the world at different times.
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Then we get into red, which is all about sort of feudal empire, protective impulses, this instinct to sort of be strong and powerful and protect.
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Obviously we're seeing a lot of that in the world.
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Then we get into blue, which is the birth of justice, order, hierarchy, religion, and every single one of these states has sort of its positive side and its negative side.
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And the negative side is when it pushes us to the next level, because we start to create resistance, oppositional resistance, to get to this next state.
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So that's blue, a lot of blue in the world.
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Then we get to orange, which is the birth of science, this instinct to control and explain the world.
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This is the birth of medicine, rationalism, growth, economic growth.
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You could say that the sort of negative edge is consumerism, exploitation, endless growth, more and more and more capitalism.
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Then, from orange we get green, which is this idea of egalitarianism, that we're all the same, that every story matters.
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No life is more important than any other life, and you get sort of systems like socialism and this desire for sort of equality at any cost.
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Again, all really beautiful and this idea that we can't survive orange.
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We can't survive all this orange and the consumerism.
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And green has a lot of judgment, as you can imagine, about red and blue.
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These are all within the first tier and what Wilbur and Beck and Graves explain about the first tier is that there's an intolerance within this first tier for all the other types.
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Whatever is most dominant in you feels like the only way.
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And what I think we're trying to get to is the second tier, thinking, which is yellow these colors are totally arbitrary, by the way which is where we can actually get to the point where we can understand, recognize, value, all of these other sort of memes they call them memes or levels that are present in the world and present in us as needed, at different times, and that we're not denying, disavowing, diminishing any of these levels that we recognize they all have their time and their place.
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That was the piece that I wanted us to hear.
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Right there was whatever feels most dominant.
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That feels like the only way, wow.
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Wow, that's really cool.
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I know that was a lot of detail, but it was interesting.
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It was a lot of detail, so do you want my response to it or do you want to share your response to it?
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No, I would like to hear yours.
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Well, I feel like it's like this, like blatant.
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This is the same thing as the Enneagram, I know.
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I mean too.
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It's the same thing as Myers-Briggs.
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I know this is the same thing as the Sacred Spiral or the human blueprint or whatever that thing is.
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You know, it's like us humans bless our hearts, like we're so badly trying to figure it out.
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I know, like we want to believe that it's a personality type or it's a this, I'm a one or a nine, and then I've got an arrow of disintegration and integration and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it's like guys, it's just, it's, it's, it's unfigurable, I think, yeah, and I also think it is wildly fascinating.
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The creativity of the human spirit, yeah, how, you know, she mentions all these dudes and a couple of ladies, I think in there I don't think there were any ladies, but keep going Well.
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I feel like there was at least one.
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But you know, it's like, it's like people over, you know, you look at it's psychology and philosophy and theology and stuff like that, and you just see these at least I see these common threads and it makes me just want to go.
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Can everybody put your guns down?
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I know, man, can everybody?
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Just at least, like I realized that there are big feelings, they're really big feelings, and there are ways that we've been trained and we've been raised and also, like we are all just trying to figure it out, man, like I just I don't know, that's really.
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That's really that's a really cool thing that you found.
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I love it.
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And I am curious about that woman, like could she not find a quiet place to share?
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I know Information.
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I was trying to figure out where she was.
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I love that you called her that woman, that woman, kat.
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I heard a phrase that somebody just put on there Instagram this week and I wrote it down because it reminded me of Wu Wei, which sometimes Sarah calls we Wu because that's what she calls one of her cats we Wu.
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So you could say either, but the phrase that they said was being neutral is being free, and it took me a second to be like ah, neutral's bad, you know what I mean.
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But then I thought I haven't looked up what the word neutral means.
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Maybe we need to do a deep dive there.
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But being neutral means being free.
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And I thought, yeah, because I don't know.
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There's a part of being neutral.
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That is what's.
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The word Is boring.
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No, that's true.
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Though, too.
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Like neutral colors?
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Please never.
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But there's a part of being neutral that, I think, means that you're waving a white flag, like you're giving up in some way.
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But also maybe you're just not as worried.
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You're not putting your energy where it doesn't need to be.
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Yeah, it reminds me of the story of the farmer that we told many, many episodes ago, where it's like it's basically like the less attachment that you can have to the outcome, the better, according to whoever's enlightened.
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And I think the thing that I struggle with and I've spent a lot of time, especially when I was in Colorado, I spent a lot of time thinking about this is why does that feel so to me?
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Why does that feel uninteresting and boring and not exciting that it's like I would be able to achieve such a level of not caring, just being okay with whatever, and not passively, very intentionally, I am going to just trust that nature is going to move.
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Like one of the things that I wrote down on my trip is that one of the things that I find really beautiful about nature is the patience and the persistence of it.
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Nature is patient and it's persistent.
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The seasons are coming.
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Yeah, I was going to say you can't stop them.
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One of them or not, they're here.
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Well, take that with real life.
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It's like it's so easy to go into victimhood, especially when real shit is happening, like really hard shit's happening.
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But I find myself in those times going like, oh my God, when is this going to end?
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I use the phrase a lot get her bad.
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I use something's got to give.
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And, to your point, seasons are going to change.
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You know what I mean.
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Put that in the context of our lives.
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They always have.
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I love that phrase where people say you've survived all of your worst days.
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Yeah that's beautiful.
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It's so hard to see that in the moment, though.
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It really is.
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It's like and it's because we're so close to it, I think and as much as I don't want to again being out in the sunshine and walking especially in the fall walking and seeing the beauty of the different colored leaves like there is something when you go out there that makes whatever the hard thing is a little bit lighter, because you feel connected to something again.
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Yes, yeah, Exactly you feel, at least to me.
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I feel understood, yeah, I feel understood when I look at the tree and I go oh my gosh, you are having to let go.
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Yes, you are having to really gear up for a really really cold, quiet, dark season.
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Yeah, you know, and when I look at the tree in spring and I go, oh my gosh, like you're coming to life, like you're doing all the things, like you're about to show your great and wonderful majesty and beauty, and all of that, and then in the summertime it's like, look, it's a spot of time.
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You know, Like to me.
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It's so lovely and I think I heard this one of my clients.
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I went to a concert last night up in Kentucky in one of my clients.
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I bet you did.
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That we were listening to.
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He said one of the things that I think is most important for humans and he cited several biblical references to this is to be reminded that we're not alone.
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Yeah, for sure, yes.
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And it's like if I can just look at the tree, yeah, and realize I'm not alone, like to me that's not that terribly comforting, like I wanna have like 30 people go me too, me too, me too, you know, and I think being out in nature is one step toward that.
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I really really do, because I feel like nature is like me too, like yeah, we've been doing this for quite a minute, right?
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I love this Jeopardy game, wow.
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Well, can I share something real quick that is related to the Wuwei goodness?
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Yeah, I've shared it before, but I'm gonna share it again.
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Gosh darn it.
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It's my favorite Rumi poem and it's called the Great Wagon.
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But this is just the middle verse and it's my favorite.
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I have most of it memorized, but I'm gonna read it Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field.
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I'll meet you there when the soul lies down in that grass.
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The world is too full to talk about Ideas, language, even the phrase each other doesn't make any sense.
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The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you.
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Don't go back to sleep.
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You must ask for what you really want.
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Don't go back to sleep.
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People are going back and forth across the door sill where the two worlds touch.
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The door is round and open.
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Don't go back to sleep.
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If I could get any tattoo in my life but I can't figure out how to make it make sense it would be that field.
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Anytime I'm looking for that sacred place where nobody is against each other.
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It's been so hard on social media to see the fight between what's going on in Israel and Gaza Because ultimately, I don't think any of us want anyone to die.
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And it's like I don't even know how to get involved in that conversation because I just literally want to have a peace flag, you know.
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But I think about that field all the time of like how can I meet?
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Like none of that matters, it all falls away If we can just come together and see each other as human, that we have more alike than we do different.
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Yeah, it makes me think, Moose, that when we get to go to Colorado together not if, but when we get to go together we went up to some of the filming spots from the Old Western called True Grit, cause it was all filmed like in that area and that's also the setting of the author Julie Ackerson's book.
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Simron Falls is kind of the Simron Mountain Range and so we went and saw waterfalls and we went and saw meadows and we went and saw mountains and we, you know, we kind of I really wanted to like feel and see in like real life, like what was described in the book.
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And one of the places that we went was called Deb's Meadow and it's this meadow that's right at about 10,000 feet and it's where one of the scenes from the movie True Grit was shot, and this really big mountain in the background called Chimney Rock is kind of like the focal point in the background.
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But then there's this like meadow that's probably like six or seven acres of just like wide open space.
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It's really beautiful and I literally couldn't not stop and just sit down and put my hands on the earth.
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Yeah, exactly, I had to just sit there.
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It was.
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It's like I had to just sit there and really ground and go like okay, Like, and it's neat to me that we talked about like meeting in that field, like me, and that meadow meeting in that place, and I feel like I sat in a version of that place and I would love to do that with you.
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That's so cool, oh my gosh.
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Let's do it.
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I want to like redo that whole trip and however former fashion it would be for us, because I think the trip that you just went on was especially made for you and your friends.
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But I would love to do that again.
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I really can't wait, me too.
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Me too, I would love that.
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I would too.
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And that book, like I just finished I know we've talked about it before I just finished editing and producing it and we've submitted it and it's all gonna be available on audio books soon.
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But I mean because I've gone through that book probably four or five times like I cannot wait to see the landscape out there.
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It's gonna be amazing and the book is amazing, guys.
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So I'd love to share an excerpt from the book with you guys, if you'd be willing.
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Yes, yeah Great.
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Prologue.
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Lauren had the feeling she was being watched.
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She stopped and concentrated on the woods between the trail and the stream.
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The early morning sunlight filtered through the pines and dusty rays.
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A hummingbird fluttered, suspended above delicate loop and petals.
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A marmot darted past her line of vision.
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A hawk screeched and circled overhead In a forest so full of life she knew there were any number of creatures who could be watching her.
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Much more threatened by her presence than she of theirs, she resumed hiking, shaking off her paranoia.
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It was then that Lauren realized she felt joy.
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For the first time in as long as she could remember, lauren felt at peace, free.
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Even the relationship she had ended the night before had overstayed its welcome by a year, maybe more if she was honest.
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She reached the top of the falls as the trail broke through a cluster of conifer trees and opened into a clearing.
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Picking her way alongside a narrow creek with a makeshift walking stick, she sat as close to the edge of the waterfall as possible.
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This had been Lauren's morning ritual for three days in a row.
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Now she reveled in the adrenaline that surged through her body.
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The misty spray on her face was like a natural facial In the roar of the falls drowned out every anxious thought that tried to form in her mind.
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She closed her eyes and leaned her head back, face toward the sky, soaking in the feeling of bliss.
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In a split second she was on her back.
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A thick arm was around her neck, restraining her from behind.
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Lauren screamed and struggled, but the man easily snapped her neck.
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She was dead when he raped her and threw her body over Cimarron Falls.
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Coming out on audiobook soon, are we?
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still playing Jeopardy.
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Yeah, cat, give me some categories.
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Okay, I will give you some categories.
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Category Get it Cat-tigory.
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Cat-tigory.
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We need another t-shirt.
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Category one dirty water.
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Category two cows.
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Category three poetry.
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I mean, come on, you're like speaking my language, but I'm going to go a different direction.
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You would guess I would choose poetry, but I'm going to go with dirty water, dirty water, okay.
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So in the area of Colorado where we were and everybody who's tired of hearing about.
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Colorado.
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I'm so sorry, but it was just so magical and I think everybody should experience this.
00:21:26.105 --> 00:21:27.923
So I'm going to go with dirty water.
00:21:27.923 --> 00:21:29.936
I'm going to go with dirty water.
00:21:29.936 --> 00:21:31.953
I'm going to go with dirty water.
00:21:31.953 --> 00:21:33.269
Everybody should experience this.
00:21:33.269 --> 00:21:49.836
They're the indigenous tribes of that area, they're called the Ute, the Ute tribes, and they have a word that means either dirty water or colorful water, which to me is a very interesting framing.
00:21:49.836 --> 00:21:55.570
You know, depending on the perspective One person thinks it looks dirty, the other person thinks it looks pretty.
00:21:56.105 --> 00:21:57.711
I picture somebody saying can I drink this?
00:21:57.711 --> 00:21:59.349
Yeah, it's just colorful water.
00:22:00.711 --> 00:22:02.065
And then somebody going can I drink this?
00:22:02.065 --> 00:22:22.085
No, this is dirty water, and what this word that I'm about to share describes is it describes the waters that trickle down from the mountains, and the waters are containing so many minerals you know, lithium and sodium and magnesium and all the you know, coal and all of that kind of stuff.
00:22:22.085 --> 00:22:41.339
The waters that trickle down from the mountains are different colors because of the different minerals that they have absorbed as the snow is melting and they're coming down the mountains, and so the word that is used to describe their dirty water or colorful water, is called uncompagre.
00:22:43.186 --> 00:22:46.455
Oh that's that were the uncompagrant national forest.
00:22:46.635 --> 00:22:47.479
That's amazing, yes.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:53.876
Yes, so it's in the San Juan mountains, so the part of where we were is a part of the uncompagrae.
00:22:53.876 --> 00:22:57.836
Forest and it's a it's a huge like it's.
00:22:57.836 --> 00:23:03.394
It's miles and miles and miles big and long and it's a whole mountain range and the whole like area.
00:23:03.394 --> 00:23:09.642
And every time I would hear the word uncompagrae, it just did something in my spirit.
00:23:09.823 --> 00:23:10.484
I really love that.
00:23:10.484 --> 00:23:15.538
I love how certain words roll off of your tongue and make you feel I love that cat.
00:23:15.538 --> 00:23:18.731
Did you see on the side of the mountains?
00:23:18.731 --> 00:23:28.724
When Sarah and I took that trip this summer, we saw a lot of like open springs where people would like bring their milk jugs and fill up with like spring water.
00:23:28.945 --> 00:23:29.808
Did you see that there?
00:23:29.808 --> 00:23:32.037
No, if I saw it, I didn't know.
00:23:32.037 --> 00:23:32.920
That's what I was saying.
00:23:33.623 --> 00:23:34.125
It's so cool.
00:23:34.125 --> 00:23:36.876
I was like, oh, just go get your water there.
00:23:36.916 --> 00:23:44.345
And it's just coming like it's completely Untouched by man other than man screwing with the ozone layer you know what I mean.
